Should He Stay or Should He Go Now?

[Drachir]

Ok I have mixed emotions on whether Dennis Green needs to stay or he needs to go. Reflecting back on the season and seeing the 8 game losing streak and the could've, would've, should've wins that didn't happen along with beating the teams that we should beat.

If I based it solely on performance over the past 3 years I would say Dennis Green needs to be canned!

However if I base it on progression of this team over the past 6 weeks than we need to pick up the option year on Dennis Green's contract and ride it out for the 5 years that he signed here for.

I am undecided because if we do let Dennis Green go it appears that there are very few teams looking to part ways with their head coach this year which leaves some really good candidates out there.

Here is the short list of Head Coaches that could be looking for new line of work.

Nick Saban - Miami Dolphins (Mentioned to be going back to the college ranks.)
Bill Cowher - Pittsburgh Steelers (This is a long shot but remember he is NOT under contract as of yet for next year.)
Art Shell - Oakland Raiders (Would he really be gone after only one year?)
Tom Coughlin - New York Giants (He is a loose cannon as his players don't respect him and his military mentality.)
Jim Mora, Jr. - Atlanta Falcons (Some of his comments earlier didn't set well with Arthur Blank although he didn't show it publicly I believe that Mora may be on the way out.)
Jay Gruden - Tampa Bay Buccaneers (Injuries this year killed his team.)

Out of these coaches mentioned above I think that Art Shell and Tom Coughlin are the only two that will be fired creating only 2 openings unless we fire Dennis Green.

Ok fans someone convince me as if I was Bill Bidwill and Michael Bidwill in which I had to make the decision of whether to retain Dennis Green's contract or release him after the end of the year as I am NOT sold either way at the present time. After I hear both sides thoroughly I will make my vote and close the poll! You have one week to convince me either way!

At the end of one week I can go one of three ways. I can either pick up the option and keep Dennis Green for the length of his contract, fire him, or choose to do nothing in which case if I choose to do nothing than that would mean that Dennis Green would still be the head coach for another year with the option in limbo.

[Saturn5]

You cannot grade a coach on 6 weeks results.

You have to grade him on the totality of his tenure with the Cardinals. 16-31 will get him an F grade, or MAYBE a D- if you're really, really generous.

Would any other team in the NFL keep a coach employed with a 16-31 overall record? Measure your decision based on how the rest of the league handles these situations. Cause the rest of the league has a far far better grip on running an NFL franchise than you do. There is a practical common business management tool called "best practices" which means measure your decisions and results achieved against the best in the business. That would certainly point to Denny being positively fired, if this team is to have a chance at being successful in the near term. Afterall, would the best teams in the league tolerate such an abysmal won-loss record? The answer is obviously not, and chances are he most likely would not have lasted this entire season. A team serious about winning, would have fired him after the Bears meltdown, as it was painfully clear Denny had lost the team and the season at that point.

Not to mention, the timing could hardly be better. Lots of qualified candidates, with very few possible destinations = a much much better chance of getting the very best coach for this team.

A young and still developing team needs a coach who actually coaches players. Denny's forte is gathering talent and motivating a VETERAN team to win consistently. His record in Minnesota is proof of that. If he was going to get this team to win, it would have already happened. Last season and this season were his best opportunities. It's quite obvious that he is not adept at teaching young players.

The team is now at the crossroads. The talent, for the most part is now in place. All the team needs is a solid coaching staff to "coach" the talent to the next level.

Everything adds up to a new coach this offseason.

[JayGee]

...Denny's forte is gathering talent and motivating a VETERAN team to win consistently. His record in Minnesota is proof of that. He is not adept at teaching young players.

our young guys will be next year's veterans... they are only going to get better, no matter who's coaching them

The team is now at the crossroads. The talent, for the most part is now in place. All the team needs is a solid coaching staff to "coach" the talent to the next level.

Everything adds up to a new coach this offseason.

saturn,
what makes you so confident that the bidwill's will choose the "right" coach this time? or do u subscribe to the thinking that any other coach but denny can win with this team? the bidwills have chosen 6 different coaches in their 19 year history in phoenix and have only ONE winning season to show for it. u think they'll finally get it right on the 7th try? it is foolish to ignore how competitive we've been in the last 6 weeks, winning 4. it's a lot more probable that keeping this group of players and coaches together and then supplementing them with the draft and FA acquisitions will allow us to continue our newfound winning ways. it's like walking away from the slot machine when 1 or 2 more spins woulda hit the jackpot. u never walk away from the blackjack table when you're winning, and since the BYE, we've become a winning team.

[Drachir]

You cannot grade a coach on 6 weeks results.

You have to grade him on the totality of his tenure with the Cardinals. 16-31 will get him an F grade, or MAYBE a D- if you're really, really generous.

Would any other team in the NFL keep a coach employed with a 16-31 overall record? Measure your decision based on how the rest of the league handles these situations. Cause the rest of the league has a far far better grip on running an NFL franchise than you do. Besides which a common business management tool is to use "best practices" which means Denny has to postively be fired, if this team is to have a chance at being successful in the near term.

Not to mention, the timing could hardly be better. Lots of qualified candidates, with very few possible destinations = a much much better chance of getting the very best coach for this team.

A young and still devloping team needs a coach who actually coaches players. Denny's forte is gathering talent and motivating a VETERAN team to win consistently. His record in Minnesota is proof of that. If he was going to get this team to win, it would have already happened. Last season and this season were his best opportunities. It's quite obvious that he is not adept at teaching young players.

The team is now at the crossroads. The talent, for the most part is now in place. All the team needs is a solid coaching staff to "coach" the talent to the next level.

Everything adds up to a new coach this offseason.I hear you Saturn and although I still haven't made up my mind one way or the other I am going to provide arguments on both sides and see who convinces me one way or the other. There are days that I have said that Dennis Green needs to go and we need to bring in Cam Cameron and there are other days that I say is it really worth letting Dennis Green go only to rebuild again.

Ok if you say that 6 games isn't a measuring stick what about the Seattle Seahawks and Mike Holmgren? One can only remember that he was on the bubble of being let go just a few short years ago. He was successful at Green Bay but struggled a few years into Seattle. Here is his record the first 4 years after taking over an 8-8 team coached by Dennis Erickson. Dennis Erickson coached Seattle for 4 years to either an 8-8 record or one year of 7-9 so please don't say that Seattle didn't have the talent like the Cardinals did when Dennis Green took over.

| 1999 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2000 sea | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2001 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 sea | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 sea | 10 6 0 | 0 1 |
| 2004 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2005 sea | 13 3 0 | 2 1 |
| 2006 sea | 8 7 0 | 0 0 |

[Drachir]

saturn,
what makes you so confident that the bidwill's will choose the "right" coach this time? or do u subscribe to the thinking that any other coach but denny can win with this team? the bidwills have chosen 6 different coaches in their 19 year history in phoenix and have only ONE winning season to show for it. u think they'll finally get it right on the 7th try? it is foolish to ignore how competitive we've been in the last 6 weeks, winning 4. it's a lot more probable that keeping this group of players and coaches together and then supplementing them with the draft and FA acquisitions will allow us to continue our newfound winning ways. it's like walking away from the slot machine when 1 or 2 more spins woulda hit the jackpot. u never walk away from the blackjack table when you're winning, and since the BYE, we've become a winning team.What makes you so confident that change isn't good? There are plenty of potential head coaches out there with very few jobs going to be available this year, thanks to the high turnover last year. Sure we have been competitive the past 6 weeks but last time I checked it was a 16 game schedule and to try to be competitive in the last 6 weeks of the season against very weak teams is just pulling the wool over someone's eyes. Keep in mind I am undecided on this decision yet and want to see both sides of the argument and will argue both sides.

[Saturn5]

I hear you Saturn and although I still haven't made up my mind one way or the other I am going to provide arguments on both sides and see who convinces me one way or the other. There are days that I have said that Dennis Green needs to go and we need to bring in Cam Cameron and there are other days that I say is it really worth letting Dennis Green go only to rebuild again.

Ok if you say that 6 games isn't a measuring stick what about the Seattle Seahawks and Mike Holmgren? One can only remember that he was on the bubble of being let go just a few short years ago. He was successful at Green Bay but struggled a few years into Seattle. Here is his record the first 4 years after taking over an 8-8 team coached by Dennis Erickson. Dennis Erickson coached Seattle for 4 years to either an 8-8 record or one year of 7-9 so please don't say that Seattle didn't have the talent like the Cardinals did when Dennis Green took over.

| 1999 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2000 sea | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2001 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 sea | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 sea | 10 6 0 | 0 1 |
| 2004 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2005 sea | 13 3 0 | 2 1 |
| 2006 sea | 8 7 0 | 0 0 |

In a word...winning. Even though his team was probably underachieving, he also was posting winning records. That's progress. Holmgren made progress in the won-loss column albeit, small, slow progress. Denny's record is nearly identical to Dave McGinnis's. That's not progress, and if you're not getting better in the won-loss column in the NFL, then you're falling behind. If denny had achieved a winning record this year or last, the chances of him staying would have been better. His three year record basically says, he's no better than Dave McGinnis, and some might say he's worse, because he's had better talent to work with.

[Saturn5]

saturn,
what makes you so confident that the bidwill's will choose the "right" coach this time?

This line of reasoning is backwards in the worst way.

They chose Denny. and you're advocating keeping him, even though, in your logic, the bidwills can't choose the "right" coach.

[ZOna_Style]

Green created all of the problems that haunt him today.


SEE YA LATER GREEN!

[JayGee]

What makes you so confident that change isn't good? There are plenty of potential head coaches out there with very few jobs going to be available this year, thanks to the high turnover last year. Sure we have been competitive the past 6 weeks but last time I checked it was a 16 game schedule and to try to be competitive in the last 6 weeks of the season against very weak teams is just pulling the wool over someone's eyes. Keep in mind I am undecided on this decision yet and want to see both sides of the argument and will argue both sides.

drachir, i'm not confident that change isnt good. its certainly worked elsewhere like the saints and jets this year. but there's also places where it hasnt worked like oakland, detroit, and cleveland. and heck tampa has a guy thats been there a while and they just got their 4th win on sunday. everyone knows we had freakish things happened that directly changed the outcome of 3 of our early games. heck, even neil rackers was quoted as wanting to apologize to Coach Green because he felt he could have made a difference in some of those games:

“It was nice to help my team win. ... I need to go up and apologize to coach Green for this year because there were a lot of games I could have made a difference in.”-neilrackers (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81195)

we've eliminated those mistakes in our later games and are now winning more than we're losing.

the guys are finally putting it together and learning how to win. they're still playing hard like something's at stake. we now have a seasoned young QB we can build around - why make him start over the learning process? he's in sync with mike kruczek and they are getting better offensively week after week. keeping things intact just makes the most sense.

[Drachir]

I hear you Saturn and although I still haven't made up my mind one way or the other I am going to provide arguments on both sides and see who convinces me one way or the other. There are days that I have said that Dennis Green needs to go and we need to bring in Cam Cameron and there are other days that I say is it really worth letting Dennis Green go only to rebuild again.

Ok if you say that 6 games isn't a measuring stick what about the Seattle Seahawks and Mike Holmgren? One can only remember that he was on the bubble of being let go just a few short years ago. He was successful at Green Bay but struggled a few years into Seattle. Here is his record the first 4 years after taking over an 8-8 team coached by Dennis Erickson. Dennis Erickson coached Seattle for 4 years to either an 8-8 record or one year of 7-9 so please don't say that Seattle didn't have the talent like the Cardinals did when Dennis Green took over.

| 1999 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2000 sea | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2001 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 sea | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 sea | 10 6 0 | 0 1 |
| 2004 sea | 9 7 0 | 0 1 |
| 2005 sea | 13 3 0 | 2 1 |
| 2006 sea | 8 7 0 | 0 0 |

In a word...winning. Even though his team was probably underachieving, he also was posting winning records. That's progress. Holmgren made progress in the won-loss column albeit, small, slow progress. Denny's record is nearly identical to Dave McGinnis's. That's not progress, and if you're not getting better in the won-loss column in the NFL, then you're falling behind. If denny had achieved a winning record this year or last, the chances of him staying would have been better. His three year record basically says, he's no better than Dave McGinnis, and some might say he's worse, because he's had better talent to work with.In comparision Holmgren's record was similiar to Erickson's which is why he was on the bubble of being released. Holmgren knows how to coach playoff caliber teams as he did it in Green Bay. When he went to Seattle one could even say he digressed similiar to Dennis Green coming here to Arizona. 1 playoff game in 4 years for the Seattle Seahawks and that one was where they backed into the playoffs? I am sure you tell Seattle that and at the time they were all calling for Mike Holmgren's head in 2002. Most of them wanted him fired just like here for Dennis Green. What if Seattle would have fired Mike Holmgren? You surely wouldn't be seeing playoff caliber team much less a Super Bowl team last year. This is even more reason why I am now leaning toward retaining Dennis Green as head coach. Although it is tempting because the lack of head coach positions this year and probably next year there will be a slew of head coaching positions open. Next year being the 2008 season.

[JayGee]

This line of reasoning is backwards in the worst way.

They chose Denny. and you're advocating keeping him, even though, in your logic, the bidwills can't choose the "right" coach.

actually YOUR logic tells u that the bidwills made the wrong choice when hiring denny in the first place. so my question to you is what makes you think they'll make the right choice this time?

i never said the bidwills cant choose the right coach but history shows us theyve chosen 6 coaches, 5 of which never had a winning season here. the other guy was able to manage a 9-7 season during his tenure. thats just fact.

[Drachir]

drachir, i'm not confident that change isnt good. its certainly worked elsewhere like the saints and jets this year. but there's also places where it hasnt worked like oakland, detroit, and cleveland. and heck tampa has a guy thats been there a while and they just got their 4th win on sunday. everyone knows we had freakish things happened that directly changed the outcome of 3 of our early games. heck, even neil rackers was quoted as wanting to apologize to Coach Green because he felt he could have made a difference in some of those games:

“It was nice to help my team win. ... I need to go up and apologize to coach Green for this year because there were a lot of games I could have made a difference in.”-neilrackers (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81195)

we've eliminated those mistakes in our later games and are now winning more than we're losing.

the guys are finally putting it together and learning how to win. they're still playing hard like something's at stake. we now have a seasoned young QB we can build around - why make him start over the learning process? he's in sync with mike kruczek and they are getting better offensively week after week. keeping things intact just makes the most sense.One can argue that we are winning more than we are losing because we are playing poor teams. Detroit who has a horrible record, Seattle who has been Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde this year, St. Louis and San Francisco have overachieved this year and have been exposed as the teams we thought they were. Denver and San Diego teams will be the real measuring stick. Don't forget we got blown out by a Dallas team which are all playoff teams. Yeah I know Seattle is a playoff team too but someone has to take the NFC West.

[JayGee]

One can argue that we are winning more than we are losing because we are playing poor teams. Detroit who has a horrible record, Seattle who has been Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde this year, St. Louis and San Francisco have overachieved this year and have been exposed as the teams we thought they were. Denver and San Diego teams will be the real measuring stick. Don't forget we got blown out by a Dallas team which are all playoff teams. Yeah I know Seattle is a playoff team too but someone has to take the NFC West.

that same seattle team had sandiego on the ropes until the last 30 seconds on sunday. houston just beat indy. chicago had to sub in griese to beat detroit. there are no easy wins in the nfl. u play whoever you're scheduled to play and u try to beat them. fact is we won 4 of the last 6 and this should not be overlooked.

[Saturn5]

In comparision Holmgren's record was similiar to Erickson's which is why he was on the bubble of being released. Holmgren knows how to coach playoff caliber teams as he did it in Green Bay. When he went to Seattle one could even say he digressed similiar to Dennis Green coming here to Arizona. 1 playoff game in 4 years for the Seattle Seahawks and that one was where they backed into the playoffs? I am sure you tell Seattle that and at the time they were all calling for Mike Holmgren's head in 2002. Most of them wanted him fired just like here for Dennis Green. What if Seattle would have fired Mike Holmgren? You surely wouldn't be seeing playoff caliber team much less a Super Bowl team last year. This is even more reason why I am now leaning toward retaining Dennis Green as head coach. Although it is tempting because the lack of head coach positions this year and probably next year there will be a slew of head coaching positions open. Next year being the 2008 season.


Once again in a word...WINNING.
Mike Holmgren posted winning records, Dennis Erickson did not and neither has Denny Green.
Keeping Denny on for one more season, is akin to saying we should have kept Dave McGinnis on. Same record and no discernable progress. If you see the logic of firing Dave McGinnis, then the choice is clear of denny Green's fate. He should be fired for exactly the same reason. He hasn't won. simple as that.

[Saturn5]

i never said the bidwills cant choose the right coach but history shows us theyve chosen 6 coaches, 5 of which never had a winning season here. the other guy was able to manage a 9-7 season during his tenure. thats just fact.

So then what could possibly make denny the right choice?

He's lost for three straight seasons. And by most opinions, he's had better talent to work with. Yet he's no better on the won-loss ledger than Dave McGinnins, and worst than Buddy Ryan and Joe Bugel.

[JayGee]

Once again in a word...WINNING.
Mike Holmgren posted winning records, Dennis Erickson did not and neither has Denny Green.
Keeping Denny on for one more season, is akin to saying we should have kept Dave McGinnis on. Same record and no discernable progress. If you see the logic of firing Dave McGinnis, then the choice is clear of denny Green's fate. He should be fired for exactly the same reason. He hasn't won. simple as that.

the year mcginnis got fired we lost to seattle 38-0, sanfran 50-14, and cleveland 44-6. we werent even competitive. that's a far cry from the team we have now. HUGE difference in the team we have assembled and the one mcginnis assembled. heck denny's first 2 seasons were consumed with getting those guys out and his guys in. and now his guys are learning how to win.

if u want, u can tunnel-vision on Ws vs Ls strictly without seeing the whole picture to support your argument. but i think this team is way better top to bottom than the 2003 version of our team.

[JayGee]

So then what could possibly make denny the right choice?

He's lost for three straight seasons. And by most opinions, he's had better talent to work with. Yet he's no better on the won-loss ledger than Dave McGinnins, and worst than Buddy Ryan.

what makes denny the right choice is that he is a team-builder and he is building us a very good one that is likely to be competitive for years. remember his minnesota team experienced a decade of success. wouldnt it be nice to say that the cardinals have a winning track record over a 10 year span?

[Saturn5]

what makes denny the right choice is that he is a team-builder and he is building us a very good one that is likely to be competitive for years. remember his minnesota team experienced a decade of success. wouldnt it be nice to say that the cardinals have a winning track record over a 10 year span?

Yes it would be nice, but denny's not the guy. His winning teams were built with a heaping dose of proven veterans, who had won before. This Cardinals team is not that kind of team. They're young and for the most part have never won anything in the NFL. This is not the kind of team denny needs to win in the NFL. These guys still need to be coached.

[Saturn5]

i think this team is way better top to bottom than the 2003 version of our team.

Then why can't denny win with them?

[JayGee]

Then why can't denny win with them?

note to saturn:

HE IS :poke:

[Saturn5]

tunnel-vision on Ws vs Ls

That's not me, that's life in the NFL. Fair or not, you win, you stay, you lose and you're gone.

If a team keeps a losing coach on board they invite the same results. Afterall coaching in the NFL is a privledge, not a right. By keeping deeny, they would reward him for losing. What's the incentive then to win?

[Steve85308]

So now give Denny credit for the few wins we have, is he calling the plays, is he coaching the defense, is he playing the game...................he is responsible the the complete lack of urgency late in the game when the team needs to speed things up.
I am not in favor of another year but must take what the Bidwells give us.
So if we win 6 games next year do we extend his contract and go for 7 wins in 2008, what do you say guys. and when we are still under 500 and Matt's contract is up we can start again and draft a new QB because he will go where the wins are more likely. This could take another decade
Denny Must go, I just don't see him playing such a big role in the few wins we have.

[Saturn5]

HE IS

16 wins and 31 losses is NOT winning by anyone's standards.

[jbroi]

Just look at the state of the NFL and especially the NFC. Parity runs a muck. One part a blessing and two parts a curse. For a part of the season a team looks like it is running away from the pack head and shoulders above the competition then a stretch of games that team is horrible. Now the blessing in this for myself as a Cardinals fan is just maybe my team can compete - yeah right! Here we are 1 game to go and we're trying to pull our ***** out of last place in the weakest division in football. Come on people - nothing you say or any amount of gloss you try to put on this thing will convince me that Denny should stay. It's Ludicrous.

[Steve85308]

I would rather go to the college ranks and get a coach who consistantly fields a winning team that troll the NFL for coachs who after three years have failed to improve a team; and the NFL is filled with coaches who have failed year after year. Just look at the teams heading for the playoffs and you will find the type of coaches that get it done.

Alot of teams have alot of tallent but only a great coach who is also a great leader can get a team of professional football players to work as one for one goal.

Look around the league and you will see so many teams with alot of talent not in the playoffs because the individual players can't put aside their personal goals and stats for the sake of the whole team and answer to the team.

Based on what I have seen Denny Green will never lead this team to the playoffs and if for some reason we did manage to get there we would most likely be out coached not out played.

[collindebein]

With so many years of terrible football, why are so quick to blame Denny. I do not see what we have to lose in giving him another year. We already know what happens when we clean house. Then we have to be patient as the coach gets "his" players. I know this teams record, but everyone also knows the record could easily be much better for reasons that are not Denny Greens fault. It is easy to blame the coach but a lot of the mistakes rest this year on the playoffs, namely Warner for fumbling against the St. Louis, Edge for fumbling against the Bears, and Rackers for missing the kicks against the Bears and Chiefs. The coach did the right things in this situation, but the players blew it. I personally will be upset if Green is shown the door because it will be the same old story again. Try something new. Keep the coach. Show some patience. Leniert is turning into a QB that can win. Rememeber that most of Green's losses were with Warner. See if he can win with a QB that now has a season of experience under his belt. The line is playing better, the defense too. Edge is running for 100 +. Why would we stop now? Don't look at what other clubs would do. This is the Arizona Cardinals. They had a long long way to go. This is the most futile team in sports during the last 20 years. Further, if you really think that the Cardinals have made no progress since the McGinnis Era then you obviously have not watched many games. This is a team that puts itself in positions to win and has the talent to win. That alone is miles better than what we had before.

[chivasregal]

Why you guys keep bringing up coach Mac, stallings, ryan and the other losers is beyond me. Those guys may have been motivators but they were not the best at strategy and in my opinion did not have the talent level we have now. Denny flat out can't manage the clock and lacks the head for calling the right plays. Look how long it took him to get the right combo on the o-line to protect our QB's.

A new coach will not have to retool the team, just bring real football knowledge, great motivation, and with just a few more players (not that BPA sheet) in the areas we need them, this team will be the one that no one wants to play next season. And I don't think it would be too far fetched to think we could be in the superbowl next year with the right team of coaches. We could certainly blast through the NFC, and by time they get used to the new playbook and ideas, they should be unstoppable in the 2nd half of the season.

[JayGee]

...And I don't think it would be too far fetched to think we could be in the superbowl next year with the right team of coaches.

what precedence do you have a first year coach going to the superbowl? only one i can think of is jon gruden, and that was after taking over a team that was routinely making the playoffs. the team he has built is 4-11 this season.

some of you need to put your superbowl dreams on the shelf for now and aspire to reach the playoffs, where anything can happen. expecting a team with one winning season in 19 years to suddenly emerge as superbowl participants just by making a coaching change is pipe dreams indeed.

We could certainly blast through the NFC, and by time they get used to the new playbook and ideas, they should be unstoppable in the 2nd half of the season.

remember it would also take time for our team to get used to a new playbook and ideas. that could mean some losses while those who remain adjust. cardinals and unstoppable should not be used in the same sentence.

if the answer was just "hire a new coach", cardinals would have been superbowl champs 4 or 5 hirings ago. think "long-term" and not "quick-fix".

[fromstl2az]

I know I want him to go as much as the next guy. But I'm going to say finish out the contract. Only because he has one year left and sitting back thinking about it, Brings me to think that if we brought in a new guy now. It would not only make the team start over. But all Matt has learned in his rookie season would be out the window. I know Matt could probably adjust but why take that chance. Keeping in mind that since Matt is a Rookie they have not given him nor has he soaked in all of the play book.

[BodybuildingCardsFan]

I'm very much on the fence.

I think the SD game has a lot of importance in the final decision regarding Green's tenure here. Many may think it doesn't, but we will be playing against the (likely) #1 team in the NFL at full strength. We are a struggling franchise, and for Green to show that some real improvement has taken place we need to win, or at least make it extremely competitive. I believe this team has showed that it is turning the corner as of late, but this is the big chance to really prove it.

A new coach would be very close to rebuilding, especially given our QB just getting used to this system, and being young as it is.

I'll have formed a complete opinion come next Monday.

[AaronIsDaBomB]

The same results for 19 years has been firing a coach every three years. It has gotten us nowhere fast.

With Green winning more than he's losing recently, there's an argument for keeping him.

With Green at 5-10 in his third year, there's an argument for ditching him.

From my perspective, I just think it took two and a half years to turn around a program in a mess. Took time to find an offensive line that worked. 4-2 is a good record, no matter who's on the schedule.

I just don't want the "Cardinal Cycle" to continue with a new coach every three years, after three years of rebuilding the program, IE, losing... again.

I don't really like Denny and his hands off coaching. But I really don't like the prospect of starting over after the team is finally settling in to winning close games, winning on the road, and getting an O-Line thats working.

But then again, I can't stand the clock management, the lack of discipline, and the lack of adjustments during game.

I think we win next year no matter who we get. I've said it all year. This year was still an experiment year. Next year is where the team is ready to win.

:iagree: :bowdown: :rockon: :yourock: :peace: :chicken:

[JayGee]

I'm very much on the fence.

I think the SD game has a lot of importance in the final decision regarding Green's tenure here. Many may think it doesn't, but we will be playing against the (likely) #1 team in the NFL at full strength. We are a struggling franchise, and for Green to show that some real improvement has taken place we need to win, or at least make it extremely competitive. I believe this team has showed that it is turning the corner as of late, but this is the big chance to really prove it.

A new coach would be very close to rebuilding, especially given our QB just getting used to this system, and being young as it is.

I'll have formed a complete opinion come next Monday.

i agree that this game will be a true measuring stick of where we are as of this moment as a football team.

[Saturn5]

i agree that this game will be a true measuring stick of where we are as of this moment as a football team.

Huh?

A meaningless game at the end of the season, after having been eliminated from the playoffs and with the starting QB out?

This game won't mean squat in the grand scheme of things, except to San Diego.

.


I think we win next year no matter who we get. I've said it all year. This year was still an experiment year. Next year is where the team is ready to win.

That sounds so much like what was said in December 2005, it's not even funny. 2006 was Denny's year. It's passed now and so has he. No win? No coach.

[JayGee]

Huh?

A meaningless game at the end of the season, after having been eliminated from the playoffs and with the starting QB out?

This game won't mean squat in the grand scheme of things, except to San Diego.

meaningFUL as in how we measure up to what's considered the best team in the league this year - the san diego chargers. they will be playing to win to secure home team advantage, so a competitive game or even a cardinals win will show that this team has matured to the point where we can play with anybody.

[Saturn5]

meaningFUL as in how we measure up to what's considered the best team in the league this year - the san diego chargers. they will be playing to win to secure home team advantage, so a competitive game or even a cardinals win will show that this team has matured to the point where we can play with anybody.

But the mindset of the Cardinals is totally different now. That's why it's a bit naive to think this team has turned the corner just because they've won a few late season games. They have nothing to lose at this point.

A true measurement is when there is something on the line for both teams. That will truly tell us how good the Cardinals are. Those games have come and gone and the team and the coaching staff failed miserably. Now that there's no pressure, they can play outstanding with no ramifications, win or lose.

Remember how the Cardinals "measured up" against the playoff bound Minnesota Vikings in 2003? They beat the Vikes on a phenomenal last second TD from Josh McCown to Nathan Poole. The ramifications of that game? While Minny missed the playoffs due to the Cardinals late game heroics, the Cardinals fired Mac, released Poole and named Josh the starter next season only to watch him predicatably fail and ultimately sign in Detroit as a backup. So ultimately it won't mean anything in the grand scheme, if the Cardinals win or lose on Sunday and doesn't say one single thing about how we measure up to one of the best teams in the league. nor how we measure up to the rest of the league. That measurement was on full display in weeks 1-10 when the games actually meant something.

[Drachir]

Ok there are some good arguments here but we can do without the name calling. What I plan on doing is copying the arguments over to a new thread and only the undecideds will get to vote on that one but I will do that after this thread is closed about this time next week. I am included in one of those undecideds because there still isn't enough information to persuade me one way or the other as BBCF put it I am still on the fence.

[Saturn5]

With so many years of terrible football, Don't look at what other clubs would do. This is the Arizona Cardinals. They had a long long way to go. This is the most futile team in sports during the last 20 years. Further, if you really think that the Cardinals have made no progress since the McGinnis Era then you obviously have not watched many games. This is a team that puts itself in positions to win and has the talent to win. That alone is miles better than what we had before.

That is exactly why the Cardinals ABSOLUTELY MUST follow how other teams do it. Denny Green had all this supposed talent yet can not muster any more wins than Mac had. That should tell anyone right there that Denny Green is not a good coach and certainly not good for this Cardinal team.
The Cardinals need a coach who understands young players and understands that they still need "coaching" even after outstanding college careers.
Denny Green needs a team that is filled with experienced veterans that already understand what it takes to win in the NFL. He knows how to put them into the right positions with the right kind of plays and allows their experience and talent to win the game.
That's not even close to what kind of team the Cardinals are. They are an inexperienced group of young players who for the most part have not won anything except college trophies. Edge and Warner and Berry are the most experienced "winners" on the team, and Warner's not even the starter anymore. Look at the bulk of the starters on this team: Dockett, Dansby, Adrian Wilson, Gerald Hayes, Antrel Rolle, Gabe watson, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Marcel Shipp, JJ Arrington. Matt Leinart, Pope, Leonard Davis, Milford Brown Nick Leckey, reggie Wells. They don't know how to win consistently in the NFL, they've never experienced it before. They don't know truly what it takes, they need someone to teach them and coach them.
A new coach that is a teacher and spends time one on one with players and can teach even in the middle of a game. That can change up on the fly and is not afraid of trick plays and understands the need for urgency late in a game when the Cardinals are trailing. Never giving up and demonstrating to all the young players on the team that they should not ever give up either.
That's what the cardinals need, and that's not what they have in Denny Green. Denny's a pretty good talent evaluator and knows how to use experienced players that already have tasted winning and want to get there again. Players that don't need motivating or teaching or coaching but simply to be placed in positon to use their skill and experience to win consistently. That's what he had in Minnesota, and that is definitely NOT what he has in Arizona. He may never get that here, which may in fact make it very difficult for him to ever be successful here. Allow him to move on and hire a coach that can "coach"

[JayGee]

saturn,

thats a bunch of bunk that denny doesnt know how to win with young, inexperienced players and can only win with veterans. remember he drafted randy moss and daunte culpeper and they won big time. dude denny is a good coach, and you know it. he's coached well enough to be 8-7 with this team. u know the fluke things that caused 3 losses that had NOTHING to do with denny's coaching ability. stop acting like you don't see them. you don't win 100 some games in the nfl as a coach if you dont have ability. the kind of 1-on-1 coaching you're talking about doesnt come from the head coach level anyway; it comes from position coaches and coordinators.

[NightHawk11and81]

I think we win next year no matter who we get. I've said it all year. This year was still an experiment year. Next year is where the team is ready to win.

Having looked at our schedule for next year, I think we struggle next year no matter who we get. We go to New Orleans, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Tampa and Washington, and we host Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Atlanta, Carolina and Detroit. The Lions are pushovers as well as the Browns, but nobody else is. New Orleans, Cincinnati, and Baltimore are all playoffs or still alive, Tampa was decimated by injuries, Washington is improving, Pittsburgh had injuries, and Atlanta and Carolina are terribly inconsistent.
Realistically, I think another 10 losses next season is probable. We just don't have the coaching or defense necessary to win. This is a big reason that I want Denny gone no matter what. I know that he cannot win against this schedule, and I would rather waste our new coach's honeymoon year than continue to wallow in double-digit losses with Green.

[REO Bandwagon]

Having looked at our schedule for next year, I think we struggle next year no matter who we get. We go to New Orleans, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Tampa and Washington, and we host Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Atlanta, Carolina and Detroit. The Lions are pushovers as well as the Browns, but nobody else is. New Orleans, Cincinnati, and Baltimore are all playoffs or still alive, Tampa was decimated by injuries, Washington is improving, Pittsburgh had injuries, and Atlanta and Carolina are terribly inconsistent.
Realistically, I think another 10 losses next season is probable. We just don't have the coaching or defense necessary to win. This is a big reason that I want Denny gone no matter what. I know that he cannot win against this schedule, and I would rather waste our new coach's honeymoon year than continue to wallow in double-digit losses with Green.NightHawk, that is the most realistic post that I have ever seen on this board. I think you are 100% correct. Just wait for preseason, there is gonna be more false hope among cardinals fans, then ever before!!

[AussieCardinal]

the Cards winning games near the end of the year mean nothing!! Even McGimp won games when the season was dead and buried.

Goodbye Green!:bibl:

[Saturn5]

saturn,

thats a bunch of bunk that denny doesnt know how to win with young, inexperienced players and can only win with veterans. remember he drafted randy moss and daunte culpeper and they won big time. dude denny is a good coach, and you know it. he's coached well enough to be 8-7 with this team. u know the fluke things that caused 3 losses that had NOTHING to do with denny's coaching ability. stop acting like you don't see them. you don't win 100 some games in the nfl as a coach if you dont have ability. the kind of 1-on-1 coaching you're talking about doesnt come from the head coach level anyway; it comes from position coaches and coordinators.

Actually his teams were mostly veterans. Randall Cunningham, Chris Carter, Warren Moon, Randall McDaniel, Chris Dolman, Gary Zimmermann, Henry Thomas, Jack Del Rio, Leroy Hoard and a host of defensive vets as well as a smattering on the offensive line. They were a very old team by comparision. Sure doesn't hurt having Tony Dungy coaching your defense as well.

Fluke things happen to nearly every team, every year. It's the great coaches that can consistently overcome them.

And one on one coaching DOES in fact come from the head coach. At least from the good ones anyway. Bill Parcells, Bill Cowher, that's why they remain successful. They stay involved. Denny Green keeps himself removed and therefore the team falls apart before his very eyes.

His hands off approach works very well with a team loaded with vets. That's not the Cardinal squad, hence the terrible won-loss record year after year. And no, I don't believe he has suddenly lost his coaching ability. But there are coaching styles that don't work with every team. His style, that which requires veteran leadership on the roster, does not work well with a young, inexperienced team. That's the Cardinals and that's why he was the wrong choice from the beginning. They need a teaching coach who stays close to the players. That's not Denny. And he will not change his spots this late in his career. That's why he has failed and should be fired.

[Hollywood]

I am tired of getting rid of coaches after 3-4 years. What is the difference if we keep green for one more year. I would like to see someone finish the job that they started. It would be short sighted to ignore the last half of this season. the team is playing well when they have no real reason too. this should buy green another season.

people keep saying that it has taken green too long to find an o line that works and I keep saying that it has taken the cards 18 years to find an o line that works. we have been loosing for soooo long. there have been many mistakes in regards to the head coach. ie...not resigning tobin after the playoff year...giving ryan free reign over everything...not giving bugel at least another year to build on.

I am officially undecided on green but I DO know that continuity breeds success. another year for green to show that he is or is not the man is not too much to ask for. just one more loosing season among many but at least with this we get the boost of another offseason with green.

[AaronIsDaBomB]

I am tired of getting rid of coaches after 3-4 years. What is the difference if we keep green for one more year. I would like to see someone finish the job that they started. It would be short sighted to ignore the last half of this season. the team is playing well when they have no real reason too. this should buy green another season.

people keep saying that it has taken green too long to find an o line that works and I keep saying that it has taken the cards 18 years to find an o line that works. we have been loosing for soooo long. there have been many mistakes in regards to the head coach. ie...not resigning tobin after the playoff year...giving ryan free reign over everything...not giving bugel at least another year to build on.

I am officially undecided on green but I DO know that continuity breeds success. another year for green to show that he is or is not the man is not too much to ask for. just one more loosing season among many but at least with this we get the boost of another offseason with green.


:iagree: :biere: :cheers: :bowdown: :Cards logo: :sign:

[Saturn5]

I am tired of getting rid of coaches after 3-4 years. What is the difference if we keep green for one more year. I would like to see someone finish the job that they started. It would be short sighted to ignore the last half of this season. the team is playing well when they have no real reason too. this should buy green another season.



Likewise it would be disingenious to ignore the first 2 and half years he's been here. You have to look at the totality of his tenure. And this season, it's alarming to think that they've won 4 out of the last 6 games and are only a dismal 5-10 on the season. That is playing truly horrible when it really counted. That's on the coach folks, time for him to move back to the TV booth.

[Drachir]

Ok we all know that Saturn is the biggest proponent of firing Dennis Green and we all know that JayGee is the biggest supporter of retaining Dennis Green but I would like to hear the arguments from a few of the members that I have chosen at random of why they think Dennis Green should be fired or retained:

These members I would like to hear arguments from have chosen that we should retain Dennis Green:

AaronIsDaBomb
cardinals#1
Mookie
Oaken1
VgsCardsFan
Wayne's Cards

These following members I would like to hear arguments on why you think Dennis Green should be fired:

azsports
CardsFanJoe
NightHawk12to81
Sedd
OldDirtMcGirt
ZOna_Style

You are trying to convince 16 Cardinal fans that are still unsure and have voted that way including me although I haven't voted yet.

[NightHawk11and81]

Ok we all know that Saturn is the biggest proponent of firing Dennis Green and we all know that JayGee is the biggest supporter of retaining Dennis Green but I would like to hear the arguments from a few of the members that I have chosen at random of why they think Dennis Green should be fired or retained:

These members I would like to hear arguments from have chosen that we should retain Dennis Green:

AaronIsDaBomb
cardinals#1
Mookie
Oaken1
VgsCardsFan
Wayne's Cards

These following members I would like to hear arguments on why you think Dennis Green should be fired:

azsports
CardsFanJoe
NightHawk12to81
Sedd
OldDirtMcGirt
ZOna_Style

You are trying to convince 16 Cardinal fans that are still unsure and have voted that way including me although I haven't voted yet.

My biggest argument comes from my earlier post stating our schedule for next season. My other big argument is that Denny does this every year. We have won no more than 3 games in the first half of the season while he's been here. That has gone down each season.
In each season so far, he has managed to win 3 games in the second half of the season, and increased it to 4 this year. But to me, it doesn't matter that they're playing like this now. Where was this earlier in the season when it might have mattered? I want to see good play during the first half of the year.

[HAVACARDSFAN]

I've been on the "on-off-on-off" the fence of this argument for the last few months, and just about the time I think I am where I want to be..."fire-don't fire"...I hesitate. I usually never do that. I have always been a decision-maker but I am having a real problem with this one. I can and do see all of the arguments from both sides. Continuity is important, but creativity, imagination, and agressiveness are equally important. We don't have, or at least haven't seen, the latter three qualities in our coaching staff. Is that Green's fault, probably, but the offensive, defensive, and special teams coordinators have to share some of that blame also. We need to "play to win" for 4 quarters. If Denny stays we need to replace some of the assistants...defensive backs coach first...and give the OC, DC,and STC some latitude to experiment with some new, exciting ideas and see if we can level the playing field. We need to pull out all of the stops for an entire 60 minutes. I don't know if Denny's personality will allow him do that and whether he will "turn the assistants loose" or not. I'm not sure if the assistants are even capable of creating new and imaginative schemes or not. We did see a couple of "Draw Plays" last week and they worked, but we waited 15 games to try something that should have been used at least once a game all year long. We also need to utilize Pope as an integral part of the game. This is why I am still undecided. If he is kept on, he must make some coaching changes, loosen up on the conservative play calling, and relate to the younger players...let them use their talents, energy, and natural agressiveness to win, and win excitingly, rather than "not lose". I didn't mean to ramble on so long, but this is why I am still undecided. I will admit, though, that unless we see something different this Sunday, I am leaning toward firing him immediately after the SD game. :Cards logo:

[NightHawk11and81]

I don't see the cycle that way, Hawk. The first two years of his tenure, he was still building the team. It was a mess when he got here. This is the first time the O-Line has found its lineup since he's been here.

With the skill talent thats been added since he's been here, and with the O-Line finally established, I don't see why this winning wouldn't continue at the beginning of next year.

We've always said that this team is an O-Line short of being good. Well, looks like the O-Line has arrived. And since the last lineup change on the O-Line that worked, this team is 4-2.

I don't believe that there is some mystical "start of the season jinx". We sucked because the O-Line sucked. Now it doesn't. I just don't see it sucking again just because games count. Where's the logic in that?

He could have won his first year. He inexplicably benched McCown after two straight wins with a 4-5 record. Then he refused to correct his mistake immediately by going to Navarre. He single-handedly killed any playoff chances.
Year 2, we had the pieces in place. We added solid players, and we were supposed to be a contender. This was not just Green-speak. We added a new coordinator with a proven track record, we were confident. We then saw that the offensive line, surprise, still sucked. 5-11, going backwards. Far short of the division title I expected.
Year 3, we added players everywhere but the offensive line. As a result, I knew we weren't as good as everyone thought and went in hoping for 7 wins. I have even been disappointed by that. We overpaid for Edge and should have spent money on other linemen if they were available. Arrington and Shipp were not the problem. We consistently make the wrong decisions, and I don't want him here.

[HAVACARDSFAN]

He could have won his first year. He inexplicably benched McCown after two straight wins with a 4-5 record. Then he refused to correct his mistake immediately by going to Navarre. He single-handedly killed any playoff chances.
Year 2, we had the pieces in place. We added solid players, and we were supposed to be a contender. This was not just Green-speak. We added a new coordinator with a proven track record, we were confident. We then saw that the offensive line, surprise, still sucked. 5-11, going backwards. Far short of the division title I expected.
Year 3, we added players everywhere but the offensive line. As a result, I knew we weren't as good as everyone thought and went in hoping for 7 wins. I have even been disappointed by that. We overpaid for Edge and should have spent money on other linemen if they were available. Arrington and Shipp were not the problem. We consistently make the wrong decisions, and I don't want him here.
But, does that, hiring Edge, instead of OL, reflect on Denny or on the front office, or both?:Cards logo:

[NightHawk11and81]

I say Green, he evaluates the talent we have and decides what we need. Anyone could see that the offensive line was the problem. He thought Milford Brown, a lineman cut by the Texans, who may have had a worse line than us, was the answer. Foolish.

[dillon1]

Denny will be gone only if we get a plug and play coach (PC), otherwise he will get an extension.:Cards logo:

[M0J0]

Time for a change.. but and this is a big but.... they should have the succesor signed before they fire him. They should target a few coaches and go after them.

Don't fire him and then get leftovers.

[hostetler3]

The horrific truth is we cardinal fans have been tortured for years---and are desperate for a winning year in 2007. The playoffs are here again--and again we wonder why we bother. I wouldn't know a playoff experience [except 98'] if it hit me in the carachas.
The answer is clear--but very painful. Keep Green for next year.

These past few years we have lost absurd heartbreakers that sink our year.
*The team is competitive--a play here and there--we win.
*Draft day has been great---not everyone has panned--but this is not the Cardinals of old where Kiper and others are laughing at our picks--and writing us as failing on draft day.
*Warner's legs absolutely DIED on him this year--and Leinart is a rook [who I love and think will be "the guy". The best QB since.....we have never had a great one......Hart and Lomax and Plummer?---Leinart will be our best.
*The offensive line takes time to develop and we are still 2 players away---a 1st round pick for LT, and a quality center [3rd pick or fa].
*Edge will be fine---just slower than the best backs--he should bulk up and be the next Bettis.
*We desperately need either a LB or CB to step in and join a quality and improving defensive core led by Wilson/Dansby/Dockett/Berry-fragile/Hayes. We need both CB and LB but teams have won it with a hole--so one might suffice. And find a way to help Rolle--more coaching--and give him support in a scheme that won't isolate him. Antrelle is an athlete who could still be good if not great. Do not let another team teach him technique and elevate his talent--after a typical release from the Cards that backfires.
*Poor--- special teams/clock management/play calling---will not change by keeping Denny Green. Assign new people with strong track records to those tasks---and bring in a Bill Walsh type guy to sit up in the booth and help organize this team......DISCIPLINE must be provided to this coaching staff in the form of some new twist on their improving system. Hopefully Denny could shorten his to-do list each week and concentrate on what he does best. Denny did win in the NFL--which is rare for any Cardinal coach.
*I thought Denny lost this team after the Bear game--Raiders and Packers would have been wins if the players had showed up. A player who has lost confidence in this coach would have to think at the beginning of next year---"if they kept Denny after only 5 wins last year---and he wins this year--he is the guy forever. And grow on last years positives rather than failures.
*Coaching longevity ussually translates into a winning formula. A new coach in his first year makes a lot of changes and usually loses. A first year Cardinal coach ALWAYS has a losing record.

I cannot bear to see another losing season---and I think unless we got Cowher or Parcells [unlikely] a new coach will deliver another rotten outcome.
Denny Green has been close--we should be 8-7 now ---without any help from Denny--Rams/Chiefs/Bears/---all the players know that.
Get 3 impact players in the offseason via draft and fa, leaving just one big hole in our lineup, another year for Leinart with his star recievers --and this team could actually make the playoffs.
keep Denny.

[JayGee]

The horrific truth is we cardinal fans have been tortured for years---and are desperate for a winning year in 2007. The playoffs are here again--and again we wonder why we bother. I wouldn't know a playoff experience [except 98'] if it hit me in the carachas.
The answer is clear--but very painful. Keep Green for next year.

These past few years we have lost absurd heartbreakers that sink our year.
*The team is competitive--a play here and there--we win.
*Draft day has been great---not everyone has panned--but this is not the Cardinals of old where Kiper and others are laughing at our picks--and writing us as failing on draft day.
*Warner's legs absolutely DIED on him this year--and Leinart is a rook [who I love and think will be "the guy". The best QB since.....we have never had a great one......Hart and Lomax and Plummer?---Leinart will be our best.
*The offensive line takes time to develop and we are still 2 players away---a 1st round pick for LT, and a quality center [3rd pick or fa].
*Edge will be fine---just slower than the best backs--he should bulk up and be the next Bettis.
*We desperately need either a LB or CB to step in and join a quality and improving defensive core led by Wilson/Dansby/Dockett/Berry-fragile/Hayes. We need both CB and LB but teams have won it with a hole--so one might suffice. And find a way to help Rolle--more coaching--and give him support in a scheme that won't isolate him. Antrelle is an athlete who could still be good if not great. Do not let another team teach him technique and elevate his talent--after a typical release from the Cards that backfires.
*Poor--- special teams/clock management/play calling---will not change by keeping Denny Green. Assign new people with strong track records to those tasks---and bring in a Bill Walsh type guy to sit up in the booth and help organize this team......DISCIPLINE must be provided to this coaching staff in the form of some new twist on their improving system. Hopefully Denny could shorten his to-do list each week and concentrate on what he does best. Denny did win in the NFL--which is rare for any Cardinal coach.
*I thought Denny lost this team after the Bear game--Raiders and Packers would have been wins if the players had showed up. A player who has lost confidence in this coach would have to think at the beginning of next year---"if they kept Denny after only 5 wins last year---and he wins this year--he is the guy forever. And grow on last years positives rather than failures.
*Coaching longevity ussually translates into a winning formula. A new coach in his first year makes a lot of changes and usually loses. A first year Cardinal coach ALWAYS has a losing record.

I cannot bear to see another losing season---and I think unless we got Cowher or Parcells [unlikely] a new coach will deliver another rotten outcome.
Denny Green has been close--we should be 8-7 now ---without any help from Denny--Rams/Chiefs/Bears/---all the players know that.
Get 3 impact players in the offseason via draft and fa, leaving just one big hole in our lineup, another year for Leinart with his star recievers --and this team could actually make the playoffs.
keep Denny.

good analysis

[SunDevilDon]

I voted to fire him, but I think it makes a difference who they plan on hiring and what quality coordinators we can get in here as well.

[Drachir]

Ok we all know that Saturn is the biggest proponent of firing Dennis Green and we all know that JayGee is the biggest supporter of retaining Dennis Green but I would like to hear the arguments from a few of the members that I have chosen at random of why they think Dennis Green should be fired or retained:

These members I would like to hear arguments from have chosen that we should retain Dennis Green:

AaronIsDaBomb
cardinals#1
Mookie
Oaken1
VgsCardsFan
Wayne's Cards

These following members I would like to hear arguments on why you think Dennis Green should be fired:

azsports
CardsFanJoe
NightHawk12to81
Sedd
OldDirtMcGirt
ZOna_Style

You are trying to convince 16 Cardinal fans that are still unsure and have voted that way including me although I haven't voted yet.

My biggest argument comes from my earlier post stating our schedule for next season. My other big argument is that Denny does this every year. We have won no more than 3 games in the first half of the season while he's been here. That has gone down each season.
In each season so far, he has managed to win 3 games in the second half of the season, and increased it to 4 this year. But to me, it doesn't matter that they're playing like this now. Where was this earlier in the season when it might have mattered? I want to see good play during the first half of the year.I am still interested in hearing the other views. Only NightHawk has responded so far although I know that AaronIsDaBomb responded earlier but still wanna know your views.

Thanks,

Drachir

[Saturn5]

The horrific truth is we cardinal fans have been tortured for years---and are desperate for a winning year in 2007. The playoffs are here again--and again we wonder why we bother. I wouldn't know a playoff experience [except 98'] if it hit me in the carachas.
The answer is clear--but very painful. Keep Green for next year.

These past few years we have lost absurd heartbreakers that sink our year.
*The team is competitive--a play here and there--we win.
*Draft day has been great---not everyone has panned--but this is not the Cardinals of old where Kiper and others are laughing at our picks--and writing us as failing on draft day.
*Warner's legs absolutely DIED on him this year--and Leinart is a rook [who I love and think will be "the guy". The best QB since.....we have never had a great one......Hart and Lomax and Plummer?---Leinart will be our best.
*The offensive line takes time to develop and we are still 2 players away---a 1st round pick for LT, and a quality center [3rd pick or fa].
*Edge will be fine---just slower than the best backs--he should bulk up and be the next Bettis.
*We desperately need either a LB or CB to step in and join a quality and improving defensive core led by Wilson/Dansby/Dockett/Berry-fragile/Hayes. We need both CB and LB but teams have won it with a hole--so one might suffice. And find a way to help Rolle--more coaching--and give him support in a scheme that won't isolate him. Antrelle is an athlete who could still be good if not great. Do not let another team teach him technique and elevate his talent--after a typical release from the Cards that backfires.
*Poor--- special teams/clock management/play calling---will not change by keeping Denny Green. Assign new people with strong track records to those tasks---and bring in a Bill Walsh type guy to sit up in the booth and help organize this team......DISCIPLINE must be provided to this coaching staff in the form of some new twist on their improving system. Hopefully Denny could shorten his to-do list each week and concentrate on what he does best. Denny did win in the NFL--which is rare for any Cardinal coach.
*I thought Denny lost this team after the Bear game--Raiders and Packers would have been wins if the players had showed up. A player who has lost confidence in this coach would have to think at the beginning of next year---"if they kept Denny after only 5 wins last year---and he wins this year--he is the guy forever. And grow on last years positives rather than failures.
*Coaching longevity ussually translates into a winning formula. A new coach in his first year makes a lot of changes and usually loses. A first year Cardinal coach ALWAYS has a losing record.

I cannot bear to see another losing season---and I think unless we got Cowher or Parcells [unlikely] a new coach will deliver another rotten outcome.
Denny Green has been close--we should be 8-7 now ---without any help from Denny--Rams/Chiefs/Bears/---all the players know that.
Get 3 impact players in the offseason via draft and fa, leaving just one big hole in our lineup, another year for Leinart with his star recievers --and this team could actually make the playoffs.
keep Denny.

We keep Denny and we actually might see some of this happening.........................in week 15 of the 07 season.

Hire a new coach and it's very likely you'll see some of this happen by the start of training camp.
And I for one, am not for waiting.

By the way, the first year losing coach myth has already been disproven: http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=17347

[edgehead]

cower is under contract next year an did u really say jay gruden??

[Drachir]

kjbad has said it best so far in a thread titled "In or Out". Here is what he said and making me lean toward canning Dennis Green although I still haven't made a decision because the other day I was leaning toward retaining him.

Don't you think that the Saints and the Jets thought about the 'alternatives' before making a coaching change? You cannot accept mediocrity in this league, you MUST get better or forget showing up on Sundays - the fans sure will.

So...if you want to keep Green, do you want to keep Graves too? What about the rest of his staff, do you just keep them all and hope for next year? I don't get this "messing up a potential good thing" talk, who exactly is going to teach Dennis Green when to challenge and when not to? When to bring in the 3rd down back and when to leave Edge in? When to go for 2 and when to keep chopping wood until you're in a position to win?

Do you seriously think an average of 5-11 in the past few seasons is enough for ANY NFL HC to keep his job? I don't understand the difficulty, people...even ASU got this right, to get better you have to GO GET BETTER.

[Drachir]

cower is under contract next year an did u really say jay gruden??Cowher is under contract? He has talked about retiring. Jay Gruden is on the verge of being fired as well because most teams don't accept mediocrity or excuses for the mediocrity.

[arizona_cards_11]

If we are going to fire Denny and hire a new coach, there are two viable options..........(I'm for keeping Green if Cameron isn't available)

Cam Cameron (My favorite)

or

Ron Rivera (Not so much)

While Rivera, I believe, is a product of the schedule, he would be a decent HC........I'm just scared because I see him as a "Duh..Duh..Duh" kindof guy on the offensive side of the ball. We need someone like Cam who can work with our offense and use the talent available.

[Drachir]

If we are going to fire Denny and hire a new coach, there are two viable options..........(I'm for keeping Green if Cameron isn't available)

Cam Cameron (My favorite)

or

Ron Rivera (Not so much)

While Rivera, I believe, is a product of the schedule, he would be a decent HC........I'm just scared because I see him as a "Duh..Duh..Duh" kindof guy on the offensive side of the ball. We need someone like Cam who can work with our offense and use the talent available.I am still on the fence on this but if we do fire Green this is the BEST year to do it because there will be quality coaches available for the Head Coach position with 6 vacancies to fill at the most since there was such a high turnaround last year. I am afraid that next year there will be a lot more head coach vacancies to fill and it is a damned if we do fire Green and damned if we don't fire him situation.

If we do fire him though here are a handful of coaches that could fill in nicely and will accept the offer if the price is right. This is by my order of preference though.

Cam Cameron
Pete Carroll
Ron Rivera
Russ Grimm
Charlie Weiss (I only put Weiss at the bottom because of the fact that he will be pretty much impossible to pry away from Notre Dame, but if that wasn't an issue he would be right under Cam as Cam is my first choice.)

[whythecardinals]

:Cards logo: :Cards logo:
Could da, would da, should da...... and Gonna!

I have been a devoted fan since 1974.... long before, many of your parents even knew each other...... So I'm posting this with Some History:Cards logo: , Belief, and understanding...

After the Oakland and Green Bay games, I was 110% for firing Coach Green...

This year, Many experts picked us to "win" Our division....
We were given the highest scores (of all teams) for our off season moves... And once again, Our Draft Class was rated A- or above by most analyst...

Believe me:exclamationmark: I thought this was OUR year, too:Cards logo:

It's not over...... after 30+years of not winning a division, DID YOU REALLY THINK ANYONE Would turn the team around in 3years?????

30+ years!!!!!!!! yet, some people picked us to win the division this year? WHY???:Cards logo:

1 fumble and 3 Field Goals are the difference between this board reading this post or another discussing "who we should sit out to be Fresh for the Playoffs"
We are building THE ROOTS of Victory

As a fan, and someone who has supported this team for Many years (i.e St. Louis Cardinals), I say KEEP Coach Green...

We are heading towards VICTORY:exclamationmark:

PS..... What year was it when we last had a 1000 yard rusher? Hmmmm....

ONE more YEAR:Cards logo: :exclamationmark:

[gabe]

Let's take a look at some stats shall we...
True we are 5- 10 at the moment, but have put together some good wins. We have won on the road, which is new.
We have shored up the run defense which is good.
We have a 1000 yard rusher
We have a 1000 yard WR and one that's close.
The offense is finally beginning to click and we are seeing signs of DG's offense.
We are learning how to win finally, the losing culture and mentality is finally beginning to dissipate.

I believe with some key players in FA and the draft, which DG has shown some knowledge in, we can improve more. I would like to see us go after some more coverage guys as I see our secondary as mainly run stoppers. We should look at picking up a monster DE or OLB.

This team is finally showing signs of confidence and swagger and I am hesitant to blow it up and begin from scratch. We would be looking at a new system, new coaches, and NEW PLAYERS.

[whythecardinals]

Let's take a look at some stats shall we...
True we are 5- 10 at the moment, but have put together some good wins. We have won on the road, which is new.
We have shored up the run defense which is good.
We have a 1000 yard rusher
We have a 1000 yard WR and one that's close.
The offense is finally beginning to click and we are seeing signs of DG's offense.
We are learning how to win finally, the losing culture and mentality is finally beginning to dissipate.

I believe with some key players in FA and the draft, which DG has shown some knowledge in, we can improve more. I would like to see us go after some more coverage guys as I see our secondary as mainly run stoppers. We should look at picking up a monster DE or OLB.

This team is finally showing signs of confidence and swagger and I am hesitant to blow it up and begin from scratch. We would be looking at a new system, new coaches, and NEW PLAYERS.

Well
Done:exclamationmark:

[JayGee]

I am still on the fence on this but if we do fire Green this is the BEST year to do it because there will be quality coaches available for the Head Coach position with 6 vacancies to fill at the most since there was such a high turnaround last year...

you don't base "best year" to hire a new coach on lack of coaching vacancies. we're the cardinals; we'll get the 6th best coach of the 6 openings. plus, no matter what coach you choose, history shows us that new coaches need several years to teach their system, import their players, and get the team winning. the sean payton's and mangini's are not the norm. heck one could argue that mangini was set up and herm could have won with this team; remember chad pennington only played 3 games last year and he's started all 15 games this year. sean payton also inherited pro bowl RB and WR and acquired highest rated draftee with their #2 pick after a season plagued with obstacles like hurricane katrina. i know that cardinals fans are optimists by nature, but we cant just assume that any of the coaches we hire will win in their first year. we're probably looking at at least 2-3 more years of losing before putting a winner on the field. the same thing holds true with denny and there's no reason to believe that in his 4th year the winning can finally begin. heck, looks like the winning began for us halfway through denny's 3rd year and there's no reason to believe it won't continue. the fear most have about keeping denny has nothing to do on whether they think we can win next year and beyond with him. they just dont like denny and want him gone. that's why you see comments like "fat man" and "lard butt" and "chili dog" etc. believe me, bill parcells never receives disrespectful comments about his appearance that frankly have nothing to do with football. some of these guys are concerned that denny finally found the winning formula in this second half of the season in time to save his job. if someone is really concerned about the cardinals immediate future, then you'd have to strongly consider allowing this group of coaches, including denny, and players to continue through next year, supplementing with the appropriate assistants, free agents, and draftees and only ADDING to our recent success, not detracting from what we have already accomplished.

[pg13]

you don't base "best year" to hire a new coach on lack of coaching vacancies. we're the cardinals; we'll get the 6th best coach of the 6 openings. plus, no matter what coach you choose, history shows us that new coaches need several years to teach their system, import their players, and get the team winning. the sean payton's and mangini's are not the norm. heck one could argue that mangini was set up and herm could have won with this team; remember chad pennington only played 3 games last year and he's started all 15 games this year. sean payton also inherited pro bowl RB and WR and acquired highest rated draftee with their #2 pick after a season plagued with obstacles like hurricane katrina. i know that cardinals fans are optimists by nature, but we cant just assume that any of the coaches we hire will win in their first year. we're probably looking at at least 2-3 more years of losing before putting a winner on the field. the same thing holds true with denny and there's no reason to believe that in his 4th year the winning can finally begin. heck, looks like the winning began for us halfway through denny's 3rd year and there's no reason to believe it won't continue. the fear most have about keeping denny has nothing to do on whether they think we can win next year and beyond with him. they just dont like denny and want him gone. that's why you see comments like "fat man" and "lard butt" and "chili dog" etc. believe me, bill parcells never receives disrespectful comments about his appearance that frankly have nothing to do with football. some of these guys are concerned that denny finally found the winning formula in this second half of the season in time to save his job. if someone is really concerned about the cardinals immediate future, then you'd have to strongly consider allowing this group of coaches, including denny, and players to continue through next year, supplementing with the appropriate assistants, free agents, and draftees and only ADDING to our recent success, not detracting from what we have already accomplished.

JG, HAPPY NEW YEAR! I'd fire Denny mainly because of his lack of leadership as a man and a coach. Football is a battle. You are asking people to be willing to get hurt for you and the team to win. This person has proven to be a liar, untrustworthy in every way.

He has never once taken responsibility for the poor o-line play or any of the other factors that have caused this season to be such a failure. In the end it's on him and no one else.

He created a climate of disturst and back biting, that while for the moment seems to have abated a bit, will surely arise at the next moment of crisis.

To say the coach for the JETS was set up to win, well I can only say, no more then US! We had pro bowl recievers, a guy who could get them the ball. A probowl running back, at the top of his game. A first round DB who was really suppose to show his stuff this year, a supposed improved oline and special teams, as well as a host of players from the draft which were supposed to be able to help us pretty quickly if not right out of the gate.

Instead we find out the oline is as BAD or worse then last year. It can't protect, it can't block, it's a penalty drive killing machine. We can't run the ball at ALL. 4 yards down on the goal line might as well be four miles.

So what should we do? Ah yes, switch to a rookie qb! Get rid of the OC! Two sweet moves 3-5 games into the season. BRILLIANT!!!! Whether it's sitting Macklin down then bringing him back, or switching this guy for that guy on the oline and saying now we're set...on no...now we're set, oh wait, now we're set, none of this speaks to a guy who knows what he's doing. And surely not after 3 years.

Any new coach coming in here will be handed a pretty big plate of talent. If they know anything, their chances of winning are pretty good. Fire Green now. He doesn't deserve, as a coach or a man another chance. He needs to be shown the same respect he showed all others in his charge ... that's, NO RESPECT AT ALL!

[Saturn5]

you don't base "best year" to hire a new coach on lack of coaching vacancies. we're the cardinals; we'll get the 6th best coach of the 6 openings. plus, no matter what coach you choose, history shows us that new coaches need several years to teach their system, import their players, and get the team winning. the sean payton's and mangini's are not the norm. Actually they are more the norm than Denny's three straight losing seasons. If he gets to his fourth year after losing three straight, he will certainly be an exception.

i know that cardinals fans are optimists by nature, but we cant just assume that any of the coaches we hire will win in their first year. we're probably looking at at least 2-3 more years of losing before putting a winner on the field.
No, actually the standard is 1-2 years for most new coaches. many put up a winning record their first year. Again denny is the oddball of the bunch, especially getting three straight losing seasons and the team's fans wanting him back for more.

the same thing holds true with denny and there's no reason to believe that in his 4th year the winning can finally begin. heck, looks like the winning began for us halfway through denny's 3rd year and there's no reason to believe it won't continue. the fear most have about keeping denny has nothing to do on whether they think we can win next year and beyond with him. they just dont like denny and want him gone. that's why you see comments like "fat man" and "lard butt" and "chili dog" etc. believe me, bill parcells never receives disrespectful comments about his appearance that frankly have nothing to do with football.
Oh yes he does. He gets it on a regular basis. But he also wins and wins consistently. And this has nothing to do with whether anyone likes or dislikes Denny. He is arrogant, distant and more than anything else, he loses for three straight years. That makes it neccessary to fire him.

some of these guys are concerned that denny finally found the winning formula in this second half of the season in time to save his job. if someone is really concerned about the cardinals immediate future, then you'd have to strongly consider allowing this group of coaches, including denny, and players to continue through next year, supplementing with the appropriate assistants, free agents, and draftees and only ADDING to our recent success, not detracting from what we have already accomplished.
No, more like we see these wins for what they really are. MEANINGLESS.

The meaningful games happened back in sept-Nov and we went 1-8
That trumps any end of the season success the team accomplishes when there is no pressure and nothing on the line.

[whythecardinals]

Excuse me Saturn.... (no disrespect, intended)

But, How long have you been following Our TEAM?

[Drachir]

Ok I am still on the fence but after listening to talk radio on the way home from work and the Pete Carroll rumors again there is an observation that I just can't shake loose. How many wins do the Cardinals have this year against teams with a winning record? One, Uno, Ince! Yep that is correct only 1 victory against a team with a winning record and even that team isn't that impressive as it is the Seattle Seahawks. With that being said I am leaning toward getting rid of Dennis Green. I also heard that this weekend might be an audition for Cam Cameron as the Bidwills will be keeping a close eye on him. If Dennis Green is released than Cam Cameron is OUR man!

[Saturn5]

But, How long have you been following Our TEAM?



How long have you been following the Cardinals?

If you've been following football for more than 10 years or so, you'd know, denny is not the coach this team needs. He's had 3 years to prove that he is the right guy, and he's failed miserably. Even with top talent he still can't get it done. Now, at the end of the season when the games no longer count for anything except individual player stats, all of a sudden they put together a few wins. It's too late. And the cardinals need to move on.

[Cardsfan2000]

No, more like we see these wins for what they really are. MEANINGLESS.

The meaningful games happened back in sept-Nov and we went 1-8
That trumps any end of the season success the team accomplishes when there is no pressure and nothing on the line.

Saturn, you seem to be a man who appreciates statistics. You also come across as humble enough to admit when your wrong... So hear me out...

First off, it's important to put into context that DG took over the worst franchise in professional sports, the freaking ARIZONA Cardinals. We've won exactly one playoff game since 1947! Though ego and past success may have blinded him into thinking that he could've made a quick fix, a long-term rebuilding project was inevitable.
Indeed, this is what the Cardinals 2003 roster looked like. (Mac's last year)

QB- Jeff Blake
RB- Emmit Smith
WR- Anquan Boldin
WR- Bryant Johnson
LT- L.J. Shelton
LG- Cameron Spikes
C- Pete Kendall
RG- Leonard Davis
RT- Anthony Clement

DE- Calvin Pace
DT- Wendall Bryant
DT- Marcus Bell
DE- Fred Wakefield
OLB- Raynoch Thompson
ILB- Ron McKinnon
OLB- LeVar Fisher
CB- Duane Starks
FS- Dexter Jackson
SS- Adrian Wilson
CB- David Barrett

More statistics on the 2003 Cardinals- Lost by at least 18 points in going 0-8 on the road... Including losses of 50-14, 44-6, 28-3, and 42-24 by teams with 6 or less wins.
3 Wins by a total of 7 points.... Two touchdowns away from 0-16... 32nd in scoring offense, 32nd in scoring defense. 4-12 doesn't come remotely close to telling the story of that team. I can say with a straight face, that I believe that the 2003 Arizona Cardinals were one of the top 5 worst teams in the history of the NFL.

Hopefully this puts to rest the notion of Denny's mythical "doghouse." The more well-known players cut (Clement, Kendall, Starks,) were no more than average players eating up cap space on one of the worst rosters in the history of the NFL.

I also expect that some of you may be more grateful for competitive football when we had the equivalent of a pop warner team before Denny's arrival.

[Saturn5]

I can appreciate the passion with which you argue Denny's side.
However, if Mac's roster was so poor, and denny's so much better, then why has he not won any more than Mac did?
I would argue that Mac's roster wasn't quite as bad as it is made out, but regardless, Denny's purged nearly the entire roster and still can do no better in the won-loss column. That is an obvious, fundamental lack of leadership and coaching. I don't even think Denny would argue that point. That's probably why he had no comment the other day about whether or not he still had a desire to continue coaching the Cardinals.

If he had just one winning season here, the argument to keep him on board is made so much easier, and more than likely most Cardinal fans would accept him staying on.
But three straight losing seasons is simply unacceptable for any other team, why should the Cardinals be any different. If you want to talk more time because the Cardinals have been bad for so long. Well, the days of accepting mediocrity on the field need to end, and with the current roster so chock full of talent, means the coaching is the weakest link. All other teams don't give any coach extra time, if they don't produce, they are gone. Even the so called "established " coaches, Jeff Fisher, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy, Mike Holmgren. None of them have had more than 2 losing seasons in a row. It's unacceptable to them and unacceptable to the team. The Cardinals as an organization need to understand and follow that philosophy. The times of patient teams waiting for their coach to win is over. Players careers with the same team are too short to allow a coach year after year of rebuilding. Denny's had three years of rebuilding and three years of losing and besides which the honeymoon over the new stadium won't last but MAYBE one more season and that's it. So next year this team is going to be at the crossroads again. And they will desperately need to show results on the field or risk losing all the sellouts and ticket revenues. So...Denny must go. NOW.

[Drachir]

I am NOW convinced after watching today's game that the Cardinals NEED to Fire Dennis Green and lets get the rebuilding starting again. The Cardinals are down by 10 with 5 minutes left in the game and choose to lollygag their way up to the line of scrimmage. This type of game planning has sucked ALL year. Dennis Green you should put some fire under the offense butts. Too late see you later.

Bring on Cam Cameron, Pete Carroll or Ron Rivera.

[Darth Llama]

I am NOW convinced after watching today's game that the Cardinals NEED to Fire Dennis Green and lets get the rebuilding starting again. The Cardinals are down by 10 with 5 minutes left in the game and choose to lollygag their way up to the line of scrimmage. This type of game planning has sucked ALL year. Dennis Green you should put some fire under the offense butts. Too late see you later.

Bring on Cam Cameron, Pete Carroll or Ron Rivera.


I was just about to post this exact thing. I have to admit, Jay and a few others made me think twice about my stance on Denny, but after watching another display of lousy clock management, and again watching the Cardinals not playing to win the game, it's clear that Denny Green MUST MUST MUST be fired.

I am really hoping he's fired today.

[arizona_cards_11]

If we choose a retread coach......I'm gonna freak out. I'd rather have Green than a Fassel type.

Cam Cameron or Mike Singletary better be our choice.....

[pg13]

I was just about to post this exact thing. I have to admit, Jay and a few others made me think twice about my stance on Denny, but after watching another display of lousy clock management, and again watching the Cardinals not playing to win the game, it's clear that Denny Green MUST MUST MUST be fired.

I am really hoping he's fired today.

NOW we're ALL on the same PAGE! Happy New Years to everyone. Peace!

[HAVACARDSFAN]

I am NOW convinced after watching today's game that the Cardinals NEED to Fire Dennis Green and lets get the rebuilding starting again. The Cardinals are down by 10 with 5 minutes left in the game and choose to lollygag their way up to the line of scrimmage. This type of game planning has sucked ALL year. Dennis Green you should put some fire under the offense butts. Too late see you later.

Bring on Cam Cameron, Pete Carroll or Ron Rivera.

:iagree: 25 seconds in the huddle, and then walking up to the LOS...you're right...lollygagging...no excuse for that, with the amount of time left. I would like to change my vote from the undecided list to "Goodbye Denny". :Cards logo:

[Red Nailer]

Unsure! Tough call as to what is best for our team! Happy New Year to all!

[Drachir]

Ok this thread no longer matters as Dennis Green is gone. I felt it and that is why I finally responded before it happened. I also don't believe Dennis Green deserved to stay with his game planning and all. His 5 minute drills were so lackadazial that it was a foregone conclusion. Time for him to go and good riddance as I just hope that we bring in a suitable head coach and not a retread reject.