Nothing new of course... But, should Bonds be a HOFer?

[82CardsGrad]

Latest revelations seal the deal for Bonds' legacyBy Gene Wojciechowski

PHOENIX -- In the end, there is only one question that needs to be asked:

Do you believe Barry Bonds, or the book?

If you believe Bonds, then you believe the third-leading home run hitter in the history of Major League Baseball is the victim of an unrelenting federal and media conspiracy designed to frame him for the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

If you believe the excerpts of "Game of Shadows," then you believe that Bonds and his mind-boggling, bloated numbers of 1998-2004 (he missed most of last season with an injury) are a fraud.

I believe the book. I think Bonds is -- or was -- a human Walgreens, a grotesque and insulting example of better baseball through chemistry. And I think he should slither away, joining Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro in forced baseball exile.

Bonds is finished. He might play again, but there is only a chalk outline left around his integrity and home run totals. And the only way he gets into Cooperstown is if he spends the $14.50 for a Hall of Fame admission ticket.

Winstrol. Deca-Durabolin. Insulin. Testosterone decanoate. Human growth hormones. Norbolethone. Trenbolone. Clomid. These are the substances and steroids Bonds is alleged to have injected or ingested. They are the medicine cabinet of a cheater.

This sign was up in September of last season. Expect more of the same.
Clomid is prescribed to women for infertility. Trenbolone enhances the muscle tone of cattle. Deca-Durabolin is a medication used in the treatment of kidney failure-related amnesia. And yet, write "Game of Shadows" co-authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, Bonds did so with regularity and without remorse.

Bonds always has been a drama king. He was insufferable in high school, insufferable at Arizona State, and insufferable now. But his statistics didn't come with a personality rating. Love him or loathe him, you simply couldn't argue with his talent. He arrived at the big leagues as a prodigy, a lithe, five-tool player. He will leave as a cautionary tale, an asterisk wearing a San Francisco Giants uniform.

How can you not read the work of the two San Francisco Chronicle writers and not at least wonder if Bonds knew about the working end of a syringe. Either you're naïve or a member of the Bonds family.

When asked Tuesday at the Giants' Scottsdale facility if he was aware of the contents of "Game of Shadows," Bonds told reporters, "Nope. I won't even look at it. For what? I won't even look at it. There's no need to."

Here's guessing the Feds will. So will the IRS. So will his ex-wife's divorce attorney. So will MLB commissioner Bud Selig, though he was conveniently in Milwaukee on Tuesday, despite Team USA making its World Baseball Classic debut here at Chase Field. An MLB spokesperson said Selig hadn't seen the book and had no comment regarding the book's allegations.

Then again, what can Selig do other than secretly root that Fainaru-Wada and Williams got it right? In so many ways MLB, the owners and the Players Association share part of the blame for creating this situation. For years they were helpless -- or clueless -- when it came to addressing the issue of performance-enhancing drugs.

Faced with a choice of remaining true to the game, or becoming what he once despised, Bonds allegedly chose home runs over ethics. But even as his numbers increased almost exponentially, as kayak-gridlock became commonplace at McCovey's Cove, as the countdown to baseball immortality became more pronounced, there was always an uneasiness about Bonds' accomplishments. They didn't seem, for the lack of a better word, natural.

Bonds has his defenders -- lot's of them, including Derrek Lee, the Chicago Cubs All-Star first baseman who is everything Bonds isn't: a player who handles himself with grace and dignity. Lee hadn't heard of the book excerpt until he was asked about it after Team USA's 2-0 victory against Mexico.

"What's the story?" he said. "I don't know the story."

It was explained: detailed allegations of performance-enhancing drug use by Bonds.

Lee dismissed the latest revelations. It wasn't a story, he said. Bonds has never been caught using steroids. Leave him alone.

"People have been alleging him forever," Lee said.

Lee believes Bonds. I don't, and never will. I don't believe in coincidences, or physical transformations so stark that you do a double-take. I don't believe the numbers of 2001.

The tragedy of it all is that Bonds didn't need the alleged chemical boost. His legacy was secure. His Hall of Fame plaque was a done deal. It didn't matter if we thought he was a jerk because his statistics were so overpowering. No longer.

In recent years, perception was reality when it came to Bonds and the subject of steroid use. But this latest excerpt, complete with his smarmy grand jury testimony, convinces me reality is reality when applied to Bonds.

Earlier Tuesday afternoon, about an hour or so before Team USA's game, Alex Rodriguez was asked about the death of Hall of Famer Kirby Puckett, who died a day earlier from complications stemming from a major stroke.

"One of the saddest days in baseball for me," said A-Rod.

I felt the same way Tuesday. This time it was the death of a reputation.

Barry Bonds, rest in peace.

[37intx]

SIIS ACTING LIKE THIS IS A MAJOR REVELATION...OF COURSE he was on roids'

[82CardsGrad]

SIIS ACTING LIKE THIS IS A MAJOR REVELATION...OF COURSE he was on roids'


No doubt 37... But if you're MLB, or the Baseball Writers Association, what do you do?? Obviously, if Bonds never plays another game, his numbers put him in the top 3 or 4 hitters of all time... BUT, they are drug enhanced... So, what do you do? Do you still vote him in or is he going to be treated like Pete Rose. Of course, however Bonds is treated or talked about, will directly impact guys like McGuire, Sosa & Palmiero... What should happen??

[NEZCardsfan]

No doubt 37... But if you're MLB, or the Baseball Writers Association, what do you do?? Obviously, if Bonds never plays another game, his numbers put him in the top 3 or 4 hitters of all time... BUT, they are drug enhanced... So, what do you do? Do you still vote him in or is he going to be treated like Pete Rose. Of course, however Bonds is treated or talked about, will directly impact guys like McGuire, Sosa & Palmiero... What should happen??

You have to let him in.....Bonds will forever be egg all over MLB's face. He is the poster boy for them turning a blind eye in order to try and revive the game after the strike.

[82CardsGrad]

You have to let him in.....Bonds will forever be egg all over MLB's face. He is the poster boy for them turning a blind eye in order to try and revive the game after the strike.


I'm not sure I agree with that NEZ... If you can let a guy like Bonds in, why then not Pete Rose?? And if you let Bonds in, then you have no choice but to let McGuire & Sosa in, and potentially Palmiero (although I'm not sure he's got the sort of career that should get him in regardless of the 'roids...).

Bonds is quoted in this new book as saying that he went to steroids because he was so upset over the amount of attention paid to McGuire during his historic run... Yes, MLB allowed this to happen... But it's the Baseball Writers Association that votes... I would not be surprised at all if they keep Barry from induction... As well as McGuire & Sosa...

[Da Bloody Bird]

Bonds basically slapped everyone of the legends in the face by using steroids knowingly. Baseball can't let him into the HOF it'll discredit everything it stands for. McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, and Bonds should all be shut out of HOF for spitting on the integrity of the game. Pete Rose goes into HOF before Bonds or any of the other steriod abusers.

[NEZCardsfan]

:thumbsup: I'm not sure I agree with that NEZ... If you can let a guy like Bonds in, why then not Pete Rose?? And if you let Bonds in, then you have no choice but to let McGuire & Sosa in, and potentially Palmiero (although I'm not sure he's got the sort of career that should get him in regardless of the 'roids...).

Bonds is quoted in this new book as saying that he went to steroids because he was so upset over the amount of attention paid to McGuire during his historic run... Yes, MLB allowed this to happen... But it's the Baseball Writers Association that votes... I would not be surprised at all if they keep Barry from induction... As well as McGuire & Sosa...

The difference between Bonds and Rose is very very simple. Rose knew the rules at the time and chose to break them. Up until last year MLB didn't give a **** if you used steroids or not. They wanted to watch balls fly out of the yard....and didn't care how it was done.

Oops...they got caught. MLB would love it if Bonds would just retire...that way they can get on to villifying the guy.

BTW--No Bonds lover here. I can pretty much guarantee you guys I hated him long before you guys. I hated the guy before it was in style. I'm the President of the Bonds Hating Club. :thumbsup:

This is MLB's mess. :iconrolf:

[82CardsGrad]

:thumbsup:

The difference between Bonds and Rose is very very simple. Rose knew the rules at the time and chose to break them. Up until last year MLB didn't give a **** if you used steroids or not. They wanted to watch balls fly out of the yard....and didn't care how it was done.

Oops...they got caught. MLB would love it if Bonds would just retire...that way they can get on to villifying the guy.

BTW--No Bonds lover here. I can pretty much guarantee you guys I hated him long before you guys. I hated the guy before it was in style. I'm the President of the Bonds Hating Club. :thumbsup:

This is MLB's mess. :iconrolf:

NEZ, I totally agree that MLB created this mess, and it's theirs to deal with. However, when it comes to the HOF, MLB will play a minimal role at best... The Baseball Writers Association will determine Bonds' fate and I'm curious as to how others view the potential of him getting in, or not...

Bonds is a ****** for sure. And trying to separate he and Rose is splitting hairs... Bonds knew what he was doing was wrong, and he then lied under oath, which is worse than McGuire who never actually said a dammm thing...
In the court of public opinion (which greatly matters as it relates to the HOF), I don't believe people will give Bonds any special dispensation because MLB had not yet instituted a formal Steroid policy. Any normal, logical person is expected to know what cheating is and is not... Bonds cheated. Regardless of MLB's lack of leadership on the issue, he cheated. Rose never cheated, however his offense is no less wrong or harmful to the game. In my view, the HOF voters will not draw any distinction between Bonds and Rose. Hence, if Rose stays out, so too will Bonds, McGuire and Sosa...

[PiercingCard77]

McGwire is one in that group that would have done what he did steriods or not....his rookie year he hit 49 HRs. He was always a power hitter. I believe McGwire will get a free pass based on his performance before the steriod era. He was projected to break Maris's an Aaron's record early in his career. Sosa and Bonds were never known as power hitters, those two benefited more than McGwire ever did.

[NEZCardsfan]

82--are you willing to go digging through everybodies' past then?? As you know Amphetemine usage is rampant in sports. NFL has had it banned for awhile....not in baseball though.

What if the year Ryne Sandberg mashed 40 homers and won the MVP he was using uppers. Weren't against the rules....but cheating just the same.

What about Babe Ruth and his liquor problem....probably hurt his career more than anything.....but still abusing a substance.

What if a player was smoking marijuana??

There is too much tape....you gotta let the guy in. MLB deserves every shred of egg on there face for this...forever.

[82CardsGrad]

82--are you willing to go digging through everybodies' past then?? As you know Amphetemine usage is rampant in sports. NFL has had it banned for awhile....not in baseball though.

What if the year Ryne Sandberg mashed 40 homers and won the MVP he was using uppers. Weren't against the rules....but cheating just the same.

What about Babe Ruth and his liquor problem....probably hurt his career more than anything.....but still abusing a substance.

What if a player was smoking marijuana??

There is too much tape....you gotta let the guy in. MLB deserves every shred of egg on there face for this...forever.

NEZ, you're losing me here... How would keeping Bonds out of the HOF (a decision that would be made by the voters, NOT MLB), remove any egg on the face of MLB??? Either way, MLB is tainted forever, regardless of whether Bonds goes in or not...
As for your questions about alcohol and marijuana - that's just silly... Steroids are used not to make somebody feel good, or to catch a buzz. They are used to make somebody stronger.
Hey, I believe it's still debatable how much effect 'roids has on a persons' ability to hit a baseball... But nonetheless, you take 'roids for a specific purpose - to cheat... You know it as well as I do. And more importantly, the Baseball Writers Association knows it and I believe will punish Bonds as a result. Still leaving egg all over the face of MLB...

[PiercingCard77]

NEZ, you're losing me here... How would keeping Bonds out of the HOF (a decision that would be made by the voters, NOT MLB), remove any egg on the face of MLB??? Either way, MLB is tainted forever, regardless of whether Bonds goes in or not...
As for your questions about alcohol and marijuana - that's just silly... Steroids are used not to make somebody feel good, or to catch a buzz. They are used to make somebody stronger.
Hey, I believe it's still debatable how much effect 'roids has on a persons' ability to hit a baseball... But nonetheless, you take 'roids for a specific purpose - to cheat... You know it as well as I do. And more importantly, the Baseball Writers Association knows it and I believe will punish Bonds as a result. Still leaving egg all over the face of MLB...

All more respect to Jason Giambi for admitting to the use of steriods!!

[37intx]

:iagree:

[NEZCardsfan]

NEZ, you're losing me here... How would keeping Bonds out of the HOF (a decision that would be made by the voters, NOT MLB), remove any egg on the face of MLB??? Either way, MLB is tainted forever, regardless of whether Bonds goes in or not...
As for your questions about alcohol and marijuana - that's just silly... Steroids are used not to make somebody feel good, or to catch a buzz. They are used to make somebody stronger.
Hey, I believe it's still debatable how much effect 'roids has on a persons' ability to hit a baseball... But nonetheless, you take 'roids for a specific purpose - to cheat... You know it as well as I do. And more importantly, the Baseball Writers Association knows it and I believe will punish Bonds as a result. Still leaving egg all over the face of MLB...

You dodged the amphetemine usage....it was just as rampant. Probably more cheating since it heightens your senses. Central Nervous System Stimulant......

So do you want to keep all of the Juicers out?? I say just stop accepting anyone into the HOF starting their careers in '86 and after.

[ZOna_Style]

I hope he stays...I look forward to packed stadiums booing the **** out of him everytime he is on plate.:clapping:

[Gee!]

This is the last straw.. Imma quit making deposits at the sperm bank..

[BodybuildingCardsFan]

Steroids were first discovered in the '30s, and were widely used in the '50s.

Think of every famous athlete imaginable, from the 1950s on, it is very much a possibility they were popping dinabol amongst other things.

I'm dead sure there's quite a few guys in the HOF that used them, and just were never suspected/caught. Steroids weren't made illegal until 1991 in the US, afterall. The IOC banned them in '88 because of the Olympics catastrophe.

The AMA rejected the government's decision to ban their recreational use due to lack of supporting data that they caused death (data that is still absent to this day) amongst other issues. That's why it took so long to get them banned.

Needless to say, I think they just need to continue testing for them, and if they can't catch them, they have to deal with it. You can't expect that just because you catch one guy that there aren't a ton of other guys on AAS.

[Da Bloody Bird]

Logically if you weren't doing something wrong wouldn't you sue the book's writers for defamation of character or slander. He obviously used steroids and isn't going to fight the truth. No Hall of Fame for Barry Bonds.

[82CardsGrad]

You dodged the amphetemine usage....it was just as rampant. Probably more cheating since it heightens your senses. Central Nervous System Stimulant......

So do you want to keep all of the Juicers out?? I say just stop accepting anyone into the HOF starting their careers in '86 and after.


Sorry NEZ, amphetemines are nothing compared to 'roids... Sure, you might be more "alert" and less tired, but they do not improve or enhance your body, nor do they sustain fitness and enhanced ability like roids... There is no comparison.
NEZ - Bonds was asked, by a Grand Jury, and he lied... he commited perjury... He's a no-go in my book...
We'll see what happens with the rest, but I'm fairly certain that this scandal, coupled with his treatment of the press his entire career all but ensures he will never see Cooperstown from the inside!

[BullheadCardFan]

Bonds needs to retire to stop all this junk that he is putting us through ... he knows he used them .... he already has some records ... stop while you are ahead Barry ...

[NEZCardsfan]

Bonds needs to retire to stop all this junk that he is putting us through ... he knows he used them .... he already has some records ... stop while you are ahead Barry ...

If Bonds retires MLB is off the hook. I want him to break Aaron's record and cross home plate as 40,000 people are booing him.

Take that MLB. :iconrolf: :iconrolf: :iconrolf: :iconrolf:

[82CardsGrad]

If Bonds retires MLB is off the hook. I want him to break Aaron's record and cross home plate as 40,000 people are booing him.

Take that MLB. :iconrolf: :iconrolf: :iconrolf: :iconrolf:


I really don't see Bonds retiring... He will break Babe Ruth's record, but he may not be healthy enough to reach Aaron's.

Either way, MLB is so fvcked.... And it won't go away as very soon, McGwire will be up for voting into the HOF, then Sosa and then Bonds...
The guys that are now getting caught actually help the image of MLB however as it shows that MLB finally got tough and it's working...
But the whole period of the mid-90's to 2001 or so will forever be tarnished.
And again, the sad thing is that nobody can really say that doing 'roids makes you a better hitter... It does nothing to help a person see a pea coming at them at 96 MPH, and then a breaking pitch that falls off a table at 82 MPH...
A hitter still needs to put a round bat on that round pea. I just don't believe 'roids can make a person do that any better than normal...

[FantasyBaller]

My only question is what happens to Pedro Gomez when Bonds retires??!!??:thumbsup:

[Gee!]

My only question is what happens to Pedro Gomez when Bonds retires??!!??:thumbsup:
:pointup:

[NEZCardsfan]

And again, the sad thing is that nobody can really say that doing 'roids makes you a better hitter... It does nothing to help a person see a pea coming at them at 96 MPH, and then a breaking pitch that falls off a table at 82 MPH...
A hitter still needs to put a round bat on that round pea. I just don't believe 'roids can make a person do that any better than normal...

That was my whole point about the Amphetemines. I think those things worked better than steroids. And they were rampant.

Have you ever even taken a mild Amph like Ephedra?? Man, go work out with that stuff....you will be on fire. Focused like a MFer.

[azsports]

No Way!

[Wayne's Cards]

If McGwire doesn't get elected into the hall, then Bonds does not deserve to be elected.

[Da Bloody Bird]

Not ,

[MEDIC-T]

Bonds is a jag off. The media/man is ALWAYS bringing him down:violin: For 18mil per year you would think he couldn't find a reason to B_ITCH about anything:eyes:

[MEDIC-T]

Must be lots of "Bariods" fans out there:lollollol: :pointup: Get off the "creme/oil/juice/whatever and stop fibbing you little school girl punk.Man up:pointup:

[native az]

I want to see him break the record. Who knows how many players were on the juice during this time. Pitchers, hitters, all of them. If you ban Bonds you ban the whole league from getting in from the hall of fame during that time.

Its also so funny that Jose Canseco writes a book and everyone just dismisses it, but two writers say the same thing and it is considered gospel. Canseco had first had knowledge of what went on, the writers got there info from testimony given by Bond's ex and the other low lifes that were dealing drugs and hiding money.

People act like Bonds killed their family or something. The guy is paid to play baseball, not be a nice guy, or a media darling. I don't know Bonds and he has never done anything for me to dislike him.

If Bonds is band everyone should be also.

[Black@Gold Forever32]

McGwire is one in that group that would have done what he did steriods or not....his rookie year he hit 49 HRs. He was always a power hitter. I believe McGwire will get a free pass based on his performance before the steriod era. He was projected to break Maris's an Aaron's record early in his career. Sosa and Bonds were never known as power hitters, those two benefited more than McGwire ever did.

Barry Bonds hit 46 home runs his first year with the Giants back in 1993. I don't think he was on the roids then. He was about 180 or 190 pounds back then. What ever you feel about Barry Bonds, he was still a Hall of Fame baseball player before he used Da Roids.

During the strike year Mr. Bonds was on pace to hit over 50 that year. Again he wasn't the juiced up freak he is now. Learn some facts before posting it helps.